It has been noted to me that I incorrectly stated Pittsburgh's three rivers as including the Youghiogheny rather than the Allegheny, which puts me in a weird spot of "knows how to spell Youghiogheny without googling it, but doesn't know where it is".
Philadelphia is not a Northeastern city, she is metropolis plucked from the Phantom Zone, belonging not to the same cosmopolitan jet-set as New York or Washington, and certainly different from any other part of her home state. Mix one part cooking grease, one part inferiority complex, and one part traumatic brain injury, and boom, you have Philadelphia.
I think Philadelphia doesn't share a lot with Manhattan, but certainly does with the rest of New York. More importantly, you've ignored Baltimore, Philly's closest sibling.
You missed one of the fundamental questions of St Louis, "a place that at once says 'you are here' and then asks 'but where are you headed?'," .......AND PROCEEDS TO THEN ASK "WHAT HIGH SCHOOL DID YOU GO TO?"
This is also a fundamental question in both Cincinnati and Louisville. It's a through-line in the cities; we must know where you went to high school, because we don't know what region you're from.
In Chicago, it's what neighborhood do you live in? People are always looking for a signpost when you first meet so there's something to pin you to a mental map; the difference is more about whether you see more transient populations or those that lean more to a higher native population.
I didn't realize it was in Cincy, too. When I moved to St. Louis, I thought it was funny they thought it was just a St. Louis thing, because it's a THING back in Louisville. I'm sure you'll find it similar in other townie places; cities where no one really moves in or out, at least in great numbers.
Maybe that's the real similarity--these cities are all distinct from their regions because they're so insular, as evidenced by the prevalence of that question (something I never heard in Columbus, Ohio, for instance).
The Upstate New York cites — Rochester, Buffalo, and Syracuse — are much more culturally aligned with our Great Lakes brethren to the west than New York and the northeast. Notice I did not include Albany, which definitely IS a northeast city. I’ve been as far away as Milwaukee and that felt more like home than New York City.
Coming in late to this, but this is how I feel exactly. I'm a Cleveland native who has lived in St Louis the last 9 years and I refuse to entertain arguments that St Louis is midwestern. I think regions who are all too familiar with lake-effect snow belong in a category of our own. A heartier, superior category, that gets to scoff at neighbors when they complain about what little shoveling they have to do.
Agree, partially, but Syracuse would make this an uncomfortable alliance, 'Cuse could be too culturally different to be included in with Rochester and Buffalo. The quintessential "soda vs pop" line is near Canandaigua, and don't forget there are severe differences of opinions on hot dogs.
The ties that bind will have to be our shared love of lake effect, failed businesses, and small-college lacrosse national championships (RIT and Lemoyne!)
Pittsburgh is the Paris of Appalachia. (Everyone forgets most of central Pennsylvania is also full of the mountains that are in West Virginia and Tennessee!)
having driven over those mountains many times, including an absolutely terrifying trip during a snowstorm in 2011 with a brand-new puppy, I will never forget
I currently live in Cincinnati, and maintain The South starts in Ohio at the Hell is Real sign, but accept Cincinnati as a singular entity. I have a friend from Cincy who maintains it starts not in Ohio, but at the Florence Y'all water tower.
On the other end of things, I've got a friend from Indiana who insists the Midwest ends at the Mississippi River.
My partner (from Seattle) once included Oklahoma in his reckoning of the Midwest and I almost broke up with him
I've often wondered if the Great Lakes cities: Duluth, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Chicago, Gary, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, (Toronto and Kingston to some extent), are often linked by a common thread more than just their increasing vowel shift, so this makes sense as well.
If you're making the "rivers" argument here, what do you think about the Twin Cities - Gateway to the Great White North?
I think you've hit on something here, but I think there is a bit more to it than that - all of the cities you've mentioned are liminal spaces. Not just between regions, but between time periods, planes of existence, whathaveyou - think of all the interesting "ghost stories" you've heard from these cities, or how there are temporally incongruous aspects of each of the places you've mentioned.
Yep, you're reading me correctly - these river cities are, for whatever reason, the places where the boundary between our dimension and The Twilight Zone are the closest, where bleedover happens.
Maybe River Cities are more defined by the connective tissue the river provided over a century of pre-highway car travel. Because there was too much flow in and out of the city, it never gelled into one easily quantifiable thing.
And now that we have highways and planes, and you can get anywhere in the world in less time than it used to take to make it to the County Seat, these definitions will never apply to 'new' cities again?
There's one city I (might) add to this list: Savannah. It's SO different from the rest of Georgia (especially the parts of south Georgia that are just a short drive away) in a way that, for example, Charleston isn't distinct from the rest of South Carolina.
Weird. I don't think I could disagree more. I think Savannah is different from the rest of Georgia in EXACTLY the same way that Charleston is different from the rest of South Carolina.
it 100% is. one of my favorite HS teachers (we spent one week going over every lyric from we didn’t start the fire and discussing the historical importance of each event) was in the class of ‘70. he would wear his blue and gold every thursday.
he also was the allegheny college rep during career/college fair every year
Second: The Rust Belt is a legitimate cultural region of the country distinct from silly political geography. It is ALSO a hotly debated subject of internet argument. My opinion is it starts at far east as Rochester, continues west along I-90 to about Erie, PA, then walks down the western Appalachian foothills to Pittsburgh, then follows US 30 to Canton, grabs all of the CLE/AKR/Canton super-metro, follows the southern coast of lake Erie (Columbus and cincy are NOT rust belt), grabs everything in southeast Michigan/Detroit that's not Ann Arbor, continues west to Chicago, wraps up lake Michigan to Milwaukee, and maybe as far as green pay.
Third: the true coward is you, who called the rust belt "fake" rather than admitting the hole in your theory.
Fourth: I love the other 4 cities examples, particularly new Orleans
I was going to weigh in as a Floridian that you can do this whole exercise for the state.
Jacksonville (plus Gainesville and Tallahast) is southern.
Miami and South Florida most fall into a New Orleans type category, though the newness of the region kind of sets it apart. The Keys are more like New Orleans (and Savannah, as someone else mentioned).
Then you have Orlando to Hillsborough County, which are incontrovertibly Midwestern, in both form and recent migration.
But then you hit Tampa-St Petersburg and you get something unquantifiable. Throw in a place like Tarpon Springs to build the case.
It has been noted to me that I incorrectly stated Pittsburgh's three rivers as including the Youghiogheny rather than the Allegheny, which puts me in a weird spot of "knows how to spell Youghiogheny without googling it, but doesn't know where it is".
Those responsible have been sacked.
Philadelphia is not a Northeastern city, she is metropolis plucked from the Phantom Zone, belonging not to the same cosmopolitan jet-set as New York or Washington, and certainly different from any other part of her home state. Mix one part cooking grease, one part inferiority complex, and one part traumatic brain injury, and boom, you have Philadelphia.
I think Philadelphia doesn't share a lot with Manhattan, but certainly does with the rest of New York. More importantly, you've ignored Baltimore, Philly's closest sibling.
You missed one of the fundamental questions of St Louis, "a place that at once says 'you are here' and then asks 'but where are you headed?'," .......AND PROCEEDS TO THEN ASK "WHAT HIGH SCHOOL DID YOU GO TO?"
This is also a fundamental question in both Cincinnati and Louisville. It's a through-line in the cities; we must know where you went to high school, because we don't know what region you're from.
In Chicago, it's what neighborhood do you live in? People are always looking for a signpost when you first meet so there's something to pin you to a mental map; the difference is more about whether you see more transient populations or those that lean more to a higher native population.
I didn't realize it was in Cincy, too. When I moved to St. Louis, I thought it was funny they thought it was just a St. Louis thing, because it's a THING back in Louisville. I'm sure you'll find it similar in other townie places; cities where no one really moves in or out, at least in great numbers.
Maybe that's the real similarity--these cities are all distinct from their regions because they're so insular, as evidenced by the prevalence of that question (something I never heard in Columbus, Ohio, for instance).
The Upstate New York cites — Rochester, Buffalo, and Syracuse — are much more culturally aligned with our Great Lakes brethren to the west than New York and the northeast. Notice I did not include Albany, which definitely IS a northeast city. I’ve been as far away as Milwaukee and that felt more like home than New York City.
Growing up in Cleveland, I felt things in common with places like Buffalo and Detroit, while Cincinnati might as well have been another country to me.
I grew up in Cleveland, and my dad always said Cleveland is just Buffalo but without all the giltz and glam
Coming in late to this, but this is how I feel exactly. I'm a Cleveland native who has lived in St Louis the last 9 years and I refuse to entertain arguments that St Louis is midwestern. I think regions who are all too familiar with lake-effect snow belong in a category of our own. A heartier, superior category, that gets to scoff at neighbors when they complain about what little shoveling they have to do.
Agree, partially, but Syracuse would make this an uncomfortable alliance, 'Cuse could be too culturally different to be included in with Rochester and Buffalo. The quintessential "soda vs pop" line is near Canandaigua, and don't forget there are severe differences of opinions on hot dogs.
The ties that bind will have to be our shared love of lake effect, failed businesses, and small-college lacrosse national championships (RIT and Lemoyne!)
Erie Canal! Erie Canal!!
Pittsburgh is the Paris of Appalachia. (Everyone forgets most of central Pennsylvania is also full of the mountains that are in West Virginia and Tennessee!)
having driven over those mountains many times, including an absolutely terrifying trip during a snowstorm in 2011 with a brand-new puppy, I will never forget
The south starts in Stark County, OH.
TIRED: Mason-Dixon Line
WIRED: Akron-Canton Line
https://goo.gl/maps/PJZCGxNGVkR2TVbN8
I currently live in Cincinnati, and maintain The South starts in Ohio at the Hell is Real sign, but accept Cincinnati as a singular entity. I have a friend from Cincy who maintains it starts not in Ohio, but at the Florence Y'all water tower.
On the other end of things, I've got a friend from Indiana who insists the Midwest ends at the Mississippi River.
My partner (from Seattle) once included Oklahoma in his reckoning of the Midwest and I almost broke up with him
You could probably make a case for including Oklahoma in the Plains if you wanted to, but it's the south for me
I've often wondered if the Great Lakes cities: Duluth, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Chicago, Gary, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, (Toronto and Kingston to some extent), are often linked by a common thread more than just their increasing vowel shift, so this makes sense as well.
That's the Rust Belt, except for Toronto which I suppose has turned entirely cosmopolitan.
Rust Belt without Pittsburgh or Youngstown feels wrong, but also not that hard to pin down, so perhaps.
If you're making the "rivers" argument here, what do you think about the Twin Cities - Gateway to the Great White North?
I think you've hit on something here, but I think there is a bit more to it than that - all of the cities you've mentioned are liminal spaces. Not just between regions, but between time periods, planes of existence, whathaveyou - think of all the interesting "ghost stories" you've heard from these cities, or how there are temporally incongruous aspects of each of the places you've mentioned.
Yep, you're reading me correctly - these river cities are, for whatever reason, the places where the boundary between our dimension and The Twilight Zone are the closest, where bleedover happens.
Yes. Yes. This area -- a rough cross-section of the former Big East -- is America's Phantom Zone.
Detroit definitely fits this Phantom Zone category- on a river, across from another country.
Maybe River Cities are more defined by the connective tissue the river provided over a century of pre-highway car travel. Because there was too much flow in and out of the city, it never gelled into one easily quantifiable thing.
And now that we have highways and planes, and you can get anywhere in the world in less time than it used to take to make it to the County Seat, these definitions will never apply to 'new' cities again?
There's one city I (might) add to this list: Savannah. It's SO different from the rest of Georgia (especially the parts of south Georgia that are just a short drive away) in a way that, for example, Charleston isn't distinct from the rest of South Carolina.
I was in Savannah just a few days ago! It's definitely got the same factors at play as New Orleans. Wonderful city.
Weird. I don't think I could disagree more. I think Savannah is different from the rest of Georgia in EXACTLY the same way that Charleston is different from the rest of South Carolina.
Or, as a Glaswegian once asked me, "Ohio, Iowa, Idaho? What's the fookin' difference?"
Glasgow is English Rust Belt. And yes, I know it’s in Scotland. That’s their fault for junking their Gaelic language.
“ We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!”
In order to have a confluence of three items they have to meet at the same place. The Youghiogheny can kick rocks. Allegheny is where it’s at. go gata
I am presuming the "gata" here is the Allegheny College Gators.
If that's the case, then I have a new CookbookNemesis....#GoLords #AndLadies
My parents met at Allegheny, so I might be a hereditary nemesis then.
For that to be the case, you'd have to be a MUC descendent (my parents and brother all went to John Carroll)
it 100% is. one of my favorite HS teachers (we spent one week going over every lyric from we didn’t start the fire and discussing the historical importance of each event) was in the class of ‘70. he would wear his blue and gold every thursday.
he also was the allegheny college rep during career/college fair every year
Typo alert: head an hour west to Lexington
Typo? Or fundamental misunderstanding of geography? Every time I get on I-64 to head to Lexington I have two seconds of “wait, which is it??”
(Thank you, though, I corrected it)
My inner monologue every time I'm back in Louisville: "shit, which way is Hurstbourne from here?"
Okay, first of all: Say My Name you coward
Second: The Rust Belt is a legitimate cultural region of the country distinct from silly political geography. It is ALSO a hotly debated subject of internet argument. My opinion is it starts at far east as Rochester, continues west along I-90 to about Erie, PA, then walks down the western Appalachian foothills to Pittsburgh, then follows US 30 to Canton, grabs all of the CLE/AKR/Canton super-metro, follows the southern coast of lake Erie (Columbus and cincy are NOT rust belt), grabs everything in southeast Michigan/Detroit that's not Ann Arbor, continues west to Chicago, wraps up lake Michigan to Milwaukee, and maybe as far as green pay.
Third: the true coward is you, who called the rust belt "fake" rather than admitting the hole in your theory.
Fourth: I love the other 4 cities examples, particularly new Orleans
THE TERM RUST BELT WAS COINED JUST SO OTHER CITIES COULD BASK IN CLEVELAND'S REFLECTED GLORY
So where does Miami fit into this? Maybe Florida itself as a state is quantifiable as a whole?
We can go by the Howard Schnellenberger definition, Miami is the capital of "the State of South Florida"
I was going to weigh in as a Floridian that you can do this whole exercise for the state.
Jacksonville (plus Gainesville and Tallahast) is southern.
Miami and South Florida most fall into a New Orleans type category, though the newness of the region kind of sets it apart. The Keys are more like New Orleans (and Savannah, as someone else mentioned).
Then you have Orlando to Hillsborough County, which are incontrovertibly Midwestern, in both form and recent migration.
But then you hit Tampa-St Petersburg and you get something unquantifiable. Throw in a place like Tarpon Springs to build the case.
The I-4 corridor generally splits the state between the hispanic south and the redneck south, which is why it is also relevant during elections.